Sat, Feb 11, 2012

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The Universal Notebook: Wrestling with religious tolerance

Polite people don’t talk publicly about sex, money or religion. That’s what I was brought up to believe, so I guess I’m not a very polite person.

I was also brought up to be tolerant of different religious beliefs. I do my best, but I’m not perfect. And I don’t regard being critical as the same thing as being intolerant.

Currently, the United States is in the midst of an anti-Muslim hysteria brought on by the prospect of a mosque being built a few blocks from Ground Zero in New York City. To blame all Muslims for the crimes of a few Islamic extremists strikes me as bigoted and irrational. It’s like blaming all Christians for the hateful actions of a few misguided fundamentalists – killing abortion doctors in the name of Right to Life, say, or picketing the funerals of veterans because they oppose gays in the military.

God knows there have been a lot of atrocities perpetrated in the name of religion.

When I read about the barbaric stoning deaths of adulterers in places such as Afghanistan, Iran and Somalia, it’s hard to see through my outrage to the fact that Taliban thugs are not the true face of Islam. And I am reminded, too, that there are passages in the Bible that prescribe just such barbarism for infidelity and homosexuality. In order to follow the Bible to the letter, one would have be to the Christian equivalent of the Taliban, which is why I have so little tolerance for Christians who selectively cite the Bible as the source authority for their opposition to gay marriage.

We used to do a pretty good job in this country separating church and state, but these days conservative Christians insist that their religious beliefs should be the law of the land. Surely, I am not alone in finding it hypocritical that right-wing rabble-rouser Glenn Beck, whose own Mormon beliefs are hardly mainstream Christianity, should be leading an evangelical movement and questioning President Obama’s Christianity. As long as the government doesn’t tell them how to worship, they shouldn’t expect to tell the rest of us how to live, which is what the Catholic Church in Maine did when it led the repeal of marriage equity.

I’ve had a couple of readers accuse me of being anti-Catholic because I have criticized the Catholic Church for its stand against gay marriage and because I have suggested that a celibate, all-male priesthood is inherently unhealthy, contributing to the epidemic of sexual abuse. I grew up in predominantly Catholic communities, have a lot of Catholic friends, and, in general, share the Christian theology of the Catholic Church. But, again, being critical of certain stands and practices doesn’t strike me as the same thing as being intolerant of their religious beliefs.

It’s difficult for someone like myself, who believes in gender equality, to be tolerant of a religion, be it Catholicism or Islam, that treats women as subservient. But as long as they don’t try to impose their sectarian sexism on society at large, I figure it’s none of my business. I wouldn’t support a law that told the Catholic Church it had to ordain women. So I don’t expect the Catholic Church to support laws that tell non-Catholics who can marry and who can terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Still, God’s law, whether in the form of the Bible or Sharia, seems to be coming into increasing conflict with human law as the line between the sacred and the secular gets erased by theocrats. As long as the moral teachings of a religion do not violate civil or criminal law, as stoning adulterers to death does, we must tolerate their enforcement on willing believers.

And when it comes to where Muslims can build mosques, we must treat them the same way we would treat where Christians can build churches or Jews can build synagogues. To do otherwise would be unfair and un-American. To the degree that Americans sacrifice the fundamental principle of freedom of religion, the jihadists win.

Comments

dolesrchard says:

I am a lifelong independent and am strongly committed to keeping all religion out of politics. There has never been a better reason to go to war than religion. If you followed the old testament Christians would be much worse than Islamic extremists ever dreamed of being. Most Christians can't tolerate each others different views, let alone a different religion entirely, thats why there are so many different Christian sects.
I thought your piece was great and am going to share it with a lot of people.

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Melvin Udall says:

Classic elitist hysteria, hyperbole, and hyperventilation by the leader of the Beemians.

"to blame all muslims for......" etc, etc, on top of declaring public hysteria is a new record for over-reading the sentiments of those you disagree with and whose thoughts you give no credence to in any form.

"but these days conservative Christians insist that their religious beliefs should be the law of the land"...... Excuse me, but weren't you recently arguing that liberal Christians like you want your religious beliefs to be the law of the land?

Oh....I forgot...accommodationist theology isn't the same thing; it's 'enlightened.'

bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. (dictionary.com)

Once again, the signs are ever more frequent that Beem is in fact 'modeling' what he claims to despise, and what he somehow sees lurking everywhere but in the mirror.

Funny, that, in a stubborn sort of way.

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eabeem says:

If it is elitist to believe that all Muslims should not be judged by the actions of a radical few and that all religions should be treated equally, then sign me up.

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Melvin Udall says:

You completely miss the point. That is not what is going on; it is just the demagoguery liberals use as they claim Islamophobia.

It's exciting to watch you live up to the stereotype you seem to see in others.

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eabeem says:

I know I completely miss your point, which increasingly just sounds like "I know you are, but what am I?" It is an affront to the American way of life that people are objecting to a Muslim mosque/community center because it is too close to Ground Zero. If you don't think that's what's happening, what is?

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Melvin Udall says:

Why is it you can't differentiate the right to do something versus whether acting upon that right is considerate, appropriate, wise, uplifting, or sensitive to the "community?" (Oops! Let's add "compassionate" in that string, since it's one of your current favorites! Is it "compassionate" to build the Mosque there??)

Especially without resorting to claims of hysteria, phobia, or charging intentions to "blame" some for the acts of others?

I thought nuance was supposed to be a strength of the enlightened left; I guess it must be a selectively applied thing.

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eabeem says:

Do you mean like differentiating between the right to openly carry a weapon and and whether acting upon that right is considerate, wise, uplifting, or sensitive to the community? Because I certainly make that differentiation. But I see no real reason to differeniate between people saying Muslims can't build a mosque and people saying they shouldn't. There's no reason why they shouldn't.

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Melvin Udall says:

Wow. Thanks for reminding me that the liberal mind is not a rational one.

The point is that no one is saying they CAN'T. Many are saying they SHOULDN'T.

You are taking the latter and turning it into the former. If you can only distinguish the two when it suits you, but not when the boundary conditions are the same, you truly are what you claim to abhor.

We can only imagine what you'd say if you weren't so 'compassionate.'

If there's a chain of argument, every link in the chain must work (including the premise) -- not just most of them.
Carl Sagan

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eabeem says:

Okay, I'll bite, Why SHOULDN'T Muslims build a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero? Would four blocks be okay? 10?

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Melvin Udall says:

No; I'll bite.

Why SHOULD they build a mosque there? Would they rather build it one block closer?

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eabeem says:

To begin with, allow me to refer you to the concluding sentence of the column above. Beyond that, they should build a mosque/community center at Park51 because America is still a free country, because Park51 is private property for which the proposed use has been approved, because the majority of Manhattanites would welcome a mosque there, because the only semi-legitimate argument why they shouldn't is that some (but not all) families that lost loved one on 9/11 might be offended, because the Muslim community deserves an opportunity to demonstrate that they oppose jihad, because some Americans still don't understand that not all Muslims are terrorists, because cynical Republicans are trying to make political hay at the expense of every Muslim in America, and, ultimately, because we do not want the narrow-minded, junior high jingoism of Newt & Company to dictate public values in this country.

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Melvin Udall says:

Hey, Eddie, just a couple more things before this jingoistic jakanapes shuts down the jive jenerator for the day.

As to who "wins," someone recently said that it's win-win for the sponsors of the mosque. If they don't build it, they can claim that we are oppressive and Islamophobic infidels, and they will be helped mightily in this by those on the left, you included. This will heighten the conviction among their believers that we need to be "dealt with," and thus advance Islam's campaign against the west. If they do build it, they'll know they can overcome us with public relations and social pressures; in other words, they know how to manipulate us in the court of public opinion, and they can have their way with us.

On another point, I was slowly slipping into a lazy view that you think of Islam as nothing more than a distant spiritual cousin of the UCC or the Unitarians. Then I noticed that you said "not all Muslims are terrorists" (or jihadists), meaning you believe some Muslims ARE terrorists and jihadists.

Which raises the question of how you tell which is which when dealing with muslims. I look to you as a member of the professional left, armed with your openness, affirmation, and multiculturalism manuals, to answer this for us. We in the unwashed have had a really hard time, and we could so use your help.

Do you go by what they say? Do you look in their eyes and see their souls and tell that way? Do you judge by what holy book they take their guidance from? Do you judge a given mosque's congregation as either all on one side, or all on the other? Do you judge them by their Imam and/or what HE says?

As to their holy book, I have not read the Quran, but surely you, in your dedication to enlightenment on behalf of those who are not, have read it.

So perhaps one of these days you can lecture us on what it says about such matters from your lofty perch on the printed page. Try not to use too many big words, though. Most of us don't have dictionaries.

PS: It is true, isn't it, that Rev. Jeremiah Wright's Church is a sister to your Church. Let us know when he'll be a guest preacher at yours. The pews should be overflowing.

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eabeem says:

Strikes me that you might want to revive the dunking stool. You're essentially saying what I implied -- that rightwing conservatives paint all Muslims with the same brush. Very sad.

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Melvin Udall says:

You're a real hoot. You stake a claim to enlightenment, and then when you're asked to pass some of it along, you twist things away from the conundrums your thinking confronts you with.

My attempts are to explore your "chain of logic" and see where it leads. When it leads you into a corner, your only way out is 'invective' and charges of bigotry. Check your responses and column. Or doesn't bigotry and invective count if it comes from "good intentions?"

Maybe you should learn to read. I never suggested the mosque be built, or not built for that matter. I'm irrelevant in the issue. But you are an advocate, a paid professional in the attitude formation industry. As such, I choose to test your thought process and your claims.

Which leads to your claim that the majority of New Yorkers want the mosque built. I understand that 2/3 don't.

You apparently have numerous contacts in NYC, and in Arizona as well.

While you're at it, what's the difference between painting all Republicans (or conservatives) with the same brush and painting all muslims with the same brush?

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eabeem says:

I said the majority of Manhattanites favor the mosque, not the majority of New Yorkers. Have all the semantic fun you like with it, but I believe the column makes a very clear and cogent statement of principle -- there is no reason to oppose a Muslim mosque/community center two blocks from Ground Zero unless you beleive all Muslims are complicit in 9/11. You know maybe you could make more productive use of your ample free time researching how many Saudi companies own real estate with two blocks of Ground Zero. On to the bigger and better things. Feel free to have the final word.

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Melvin Udall says:

Hey, Eddie....here's just one more attempt to reach out to you, with a "last word" if that is to be.

I suppose I should be ashamed, and perhaps stoned, for saying "New York" instead of "Manhattan." If that doesn't de-certify me, nothing will.

But you know, I just did a little searching for polling info, and I couldn't find any that supports your assertion. In fact, I found just the opposite, including some work done by 'The Gray Lady,' in which, if I read it correctly, they asserted that even Manhattanites are in opposition to building the mosque there.

So in between crafting more charges of bigotry and invective, do you think you might tell me where I'll find that polling you describe?

That's the least you could do for your readers, since you can't be bothered to respond to any inquiries about your assertions.

After reading your recent piece on Arizona, I'm beginning to think you conduct your own private polling, or you subscribe to Fantasy Polling.

OOPS! Here it is......last WORD.

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eabeem says:

LOWER MANHATTAN — Manhattan voters support plans for mosque near Ground Zero, though residents of the outer boroughs are opposed, a new poll found.

The Quinnipiac University poll, released Thursday morning, found that 46 percent of Manhattanites support the 13-story mosque and community center, called Cordoba House. Thirty-six percent of Manhattan voters oppose the proposal and 18 percent are undecided.

Read more: http://dnainfo.com/20100701/manhattan/manhattanites-support-mosque-near-...

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Melvin Udall says:

Wow....a poll taken only nearly 3 months ago, before this made it into the national mainstream media. And it shows less than a majority in support, in contrast with your claim that a MAJORITY of Manhattanites support it. Which is worse - calling a non-majority a majority, or calling Manhattan New York?

Pretty strong stuff there, Eddie, compared to all the other polls showing clear majorities that oppose it, and especially ones taken in the modern 2010 era.

We call this journalistic approach of yours "cherry picking." Sooner or later, you will find something that supports any minority position, no matter how much you have to stretch the boundaries, or in this case, shrink them.

PS: As long as you're using Quinnipiac, you might as well read this article too, about a poll they ran two months or more after yours.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/seven_in_nyers_want_mosque_...

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Melvin Udall says:

The concluding sentence is a bumper sticker bromide, like "injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere."

You remain steadfast in your inability to understand the difference between "can" and "should."

Building the mosque demonstrates opposition to jihad? Wow...that's a good one; I hadn't heard that yet.

So tell us; where do you stand on removing symbols of Christianity so atheists, muslims and others won't be offended? Or removing American flags because "others might be offended?"

And where do you stand on suggesting it would be compassionate for the mosque sponsors to select another site?

Oh, and how about the proposal to build a pork serving gay bar right next door? Oh wait...that would be inflammatory, and Islamophobic, right?

To repeat:

bigotry: stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own. (dictionary.com)

Looks from here like you've shown enough to earn your merit badge, like a good little phobia screaming liberal. You can rest your throbbing veins now and work on your next funded rant.

You're fun to watch, and the more twisted your shorts get, the more fun you are.

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eabeem says:

For a guy who crows about logic and reason, you're postings rarely make any sense, filled as they are primarily with invective and evasions. Just answer the question: what's wrong with a Muslim community center being built two blocks from Ground Zero? Unless you believe that all Muslims are anti-American extremists, there does not seem to be a good reason to oppose it -- just knee-jerk conservative intolerance, the same bigotry and prejudice that has some on the far right arguing that no mosques should be built anywhere in the United States. We just can't allow that sort of unkind, unAmerican and unconstitutional thoughtlessnes to go unchallenged.

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Biff says:

Well said Edgar!

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